Joelle Kaufman: Welcome back to Kicking Cancer's Ass, the podcast where we rewrite the script on cancer. I'm your host, Joelle Kaufman, and if you're new here, this isn't a typical cancer podcast where we whisper around hard truths or drown you in medical jargon. We're here to talk about the 99% survival rate for early detection, real strategies from people who've been in the trenches and prove that you can face cancer with confidence.
Community and yeah, even joy. Today, I'm absolutely thrilled to introduce you to someone who embodies everything this podcast stands for. She's my new friend, Amy Tulley Latka. She's an entrepreneur, she's a distribution consultant, and she's the newest member of what I call the sorority. You never wanted to join, but it's full of incredible gals.
Amy. Amy has been running Maximum Impact Partners for over 25 years, helping financial services companies sell more and sell better by focusing on the [00:01:00] power of the individual individual. But here's what makes her story so compelling. When stage, and correct me if I got this wrong, stage three triple negative breast cancer showed up uninvited in her life.
She applied that same leadership principles the same can do, take no prisoners' attitude that built her successful business to crushing her cancer journey. So for example, she had her daughter bring her a joke every day, every single week during chemo, she keeps a sign on her desk. I love this. Tell them what the sign says.
Ami Tully Lotka: Misery is an option.
Joelle Kaufman: Love that, right? We can't avoid pain. We don't have to choose misery. And, and I believe she finished her last round of radiation just two months before the time we're recording this podcast. And you know, she has clear margins and her attitude is gonna make you believe she just conquered Mount Everest.[00:02:00]
So Amy, welcome to kicking Cancer's ass.
Ami Tully Lotka: is, uh,
Joelle Kaufman: How does it feel? You're welcome.
Ami Tully Lotka: really wanna be a part of, it also is the kind of club that when you join it, you realize you're stronger than you ever thought you were. Yeah,
Joelle Kaufman: Truly, truly, and you seem to be basking in that glow of
Ami Tully Lotka: is, you
Joelle Kaufman: ass. Did I?
Ami Tully Lotka: I kind of started out this whole thing with, you know, the idea that I was going to have a. Zapped at party and people would say, you know, what is it? I said, well, I was diagnosed, but like what we really focus on is the zapped at party that's coming at the end of all of this. Or we're gonna have a mariachi band and, uh, like, you know, all the tacos you can eat, it's coming.
Joelle Kaufman: So, so when's, when's my invite coming?
Ami Tully Lotka: Yes.
Joelle Kaufman: Okay, because I, I think we should fly for those things. All right, so let's, let's roll it back. Let's roll it back to that moment, right?
Ami Tully Lotka: Right,
Joelle Kaufman: You have no genetic [00:03:00] markers, you have no family history. This, this was random. So can you take us back to the moment when you suspected something's not right, and how, what went through your mind and how'd you talk to yourself to process
Ami Tully Lotka: I
Joelle Kaufman: the news when you were right?
Ami Tully Lotka: that anything was wrong. In fact, I was planning on, uh, I, you know, have an annual mammogram. You know, it never comes at a convenient time. I. You know, if you're busy, you look at your calendar and I thought, you know, I, I'd have to move a meeting in order to keep this appointment. I thought, I'm just gonna push it, and I was gonna push that, uh, mammogram for a month or two. Well, every mammogram I've ever had has just been like very routine in and out, so. Push it. And uh, I decided not to push it, but it wasn't for any reason. But I clearly remember thinking that I wasn't going to do that appointment. But the next part that happened, which had [00:04:00] never happened before, is you go in for the mammogram.
They come out and go, Mrs. Laca, we may leave. And I go, of course, goodbye. this time she said, there's something we wanna recheck. And I'm like, what? The equipment's not working. Right, like, okay, like she
Joelle Kaufman: Calibrate that thing.
Ami Tully Lotka: And I thought, really, I still was thinking it's routine and it isn't a big deal and, uh, I wasn't really letting myself go to the place where I thought that there was going to be problem. I thought double checking is always a good idea. So I went in for the double check.
You know, I went
Joelle Kaufman: Mm-hmm.
Ami Tully Lotka: for, an ultrasound and an additional mammogram, and they decided that they wanted to do a biopsy. All of this was, you know, I was at Mayo Clinic, um, which is where I typically have my annual mammogram. And, [00:05:00] um, they happen to have for a biopsy, like somebody had just canceled.
Like usually those are things that you have to schedule in advance. But that day they could do the biopsy. So I actually was caught completely by surprise, and again, I was thinking more practical. I was like, well, while I'm here. As long as I'm here and I'm not in an airplane, I don't have something else to do, sure do the biopsy too. And, uh, that those are the results I had to wait for. And, uh, at that point I realized that a biopsy actually means that there's something that's indicated that they need to, um, know, they're more serious about the checking. And I had to wait three or four days for the results, but I didn't have to wait that long. So, I mean the, the, the, the story as it is, is, um, I continued to believe [00:06:00] that there was nothing to worry about because I kind of live with you, don't worry, never advances anything, right? That no amount of worry ever makes any situation better. And, uh, so I wasn't really like owning in, it wasn't like I was denying that there could be a problem.
I just thought, I'm not going to let this week be ruined by what next week's news might be.
Joelle Kaufman: Oh, I would think as someone who spent a career in financial services, that serves you very well. Like markets go up and down, they fluctuate. Crazy things happen and you can worry about, you shouldn't worry about anything, but you can deal with today. I.
Ami Tully Lotka: the dealing with today was the phone call that said that this actually, um, was, triple negative, uh, inductal carcinoma. And, um, I was surprised to get the news that that's what it was. And actually my doctor, uh. [00:07:00] Well, I could hear the concern in her voice and she was, her concern is, is like, tip me off essentially. Uh, and I said, well, gee, triple negative, that must be good 'cause it's negative. And she said, no, actually that's not
Joelle Kaufman: Mm-hmm.
Ami Tully Lotka: negative in a good way, but, um. You know, she told me that every cancer journey is different and that is actually, you know, her advice and her kindness was really appreciated. And I had, you know, asked me if I was ready, you know, to deal with what was ahead, which is when I said, well, take a look at your calendar and tell me if you'd be ready. I was like, there's no white space on my calendar, so I'm not ready to fit one more thing in.
Joelle Kaufman: Mm-hmm.
Ami Tully Lotka: became my top priority. Right. I.
Joelle Kaufman: As [00:08:00] it has to, and you know, for the listeners, triple negative is a pathology. It means your tumor is estrogen receptor negative, progesterone receptor negative, and HER two negative. Um, traditionally, although this has changed, it is one of the more dangerous. Pathologies of breast cancer. The reason I said this has changed is they've discovered that it is very metabolic, so it truly consumes as much energy as it can get.
And when you line that energy with poison, it gobbles as much of the poison as it can get. And so,
Ami Tully Lotka: And,
Joelle Kaufman: it's actually can be very responsive. Uh, so. Which is a blessing. All right, so there was no white space on your calendar. You've built this business, maximum impact partners for 25 years. How do you navigate managing that while facing how many rounds of chemo and [00:09:00] how many rounds of radiation, and
Ami Tully Lotka: You know,
Joelle Kaufman: how did it change how you run your business?
Ami Tully Lotka: Realization that the top priority was going to be all of these things that were tackling the beast. that had to come first. But the other part of it was realizing that I actually felt fine. You know, you go and begin treatment, you're feeling fine. energy was high as it always had been.
So I, I wasn't feeling any impact. And again, wasn't, I wanted to cross that bridge when I got to it, but I didn't think anything needed to change. I could keep my business schedule. And, um, I was very, um, transparent with my clients and I told them, asked them, told them what was happening with me I said, you know, this is like, um, maybe really tough news, but here's what you can do for me.
'cause they all wanted to know what they could do for me. I said, you could not make decisions on my behalf. That's what you could do for me. You could let me [00:10:00] be in charge of telling you. That what's happening and be clear that if there's something I can not do, let me be the one who tells you that. Don't decide that for me. And I think that was, uh, appreciated. And I actually said, I'm never gonna withhold information, but I really would rather proceed. The way we've always worked and if we have to put brakes on or if things need to be changed, I'll be honest, accepted that, uh, you know, Joelle, that was really the beautiful thing is that I really had clients who were like, I could do that. could definitely do that. know, and they were very respectful with that. Like they, we didn't dwell on it. We didn't spend a lot of time talking about the diagnosis. They would ask me how I was doing and I would be honest and tell them how I was, which was typically fine. Um, I got some colleagues that were lined up to take over and do [00:11:00] things on my behalf if needed. But it really, business really continued. Business as usual is what I kept my schedule really, I kept my schedule. I couldn't fly, eventually couldn't fly. It just wasn't, um, not because I wasn't physically able to fly, but because of the risk of, um, infection and, um. I had
Joelle Kaufman: Mm-hmm.
Ami Tully Lotka: client, um, a big, uh, mutual fund company, um, that I had been actually trying to win their business and, uh, be, we worked with them for several years I actually found out the day that I found out that I had triple negative, uh, breast cancer is the day they said, uh, they agreed to sign the contract with me.
Joelle Kaufman: Gifts, gifts on all sides. Um, so I wanna pause your story here a second. Um. One of the [00:12:00] things I wrote after the book was a couple of articles for CEO World, and it was about how to manage when you have cancer and how to manage when someone on your team has cancer. And this point you made of, don't make decisions for me.
People are really afraid to tell their boss they're dealing with cancer because they're afraid they'll be taken off the promotion track or they won't be considered for a big project. And I want everyone to hear what you said. Don't make decisions for me. I will let you know if there's something I can't do.
But mostly I feel fine. Let me, let me be an autonomous thinking capable human. It actually helps.
Ami Tully Lotka: You know, give me that grace. You're asking me what, how you can support me. That's how you can support me. I said, you know, we don't always get to know what's in front of us. [00:13:00] Uh, you know, we don't know that, um, in the fa in your family gets sick or that there's an accident or that something that requires your response instantly. don't get to know those things. we're not actually judging our coworkers based on what might happen to them.
Joelle Kaufman: Exactly. And, and it's, it feels good to be able to, to do your thing, to work, to, to serve your clients, to use your brain for something other than cancer. 'cause frankly, for the most part, we don't do a lot of the thinking with cancer. It's a bunch of other people telling us you need to be here at this time.
Ami Tully Lotka: Right.
Joelle Kaufman: Exactly. Um, now how many rounds of chemo did you do?
Ami Tully Lotka: the first six months of chemotherapy that I had, which was all, um, infusion chemotherapy was weekly for six months, and that was followed by a [00:14:00] lumpectomy a. Then I had radiation, then I had six more months of chemotherapy after that. But the final chemotherapy that I had was, um, daily dose, which I could have done a weekly infusion, but chose to have a daily dose, uh, instead of a weekly infusion.
But that, that second round of chemotherapy also was, um, e overall easier to tolerate.
Joelle Kaufman: Okay. Now I want people to understand Amy and I had the same type. Of breast cancer and our treatment experiences were different because we're different people because we have different doctors, because God knows what. So one of the ways, I thought it was a very graceful thing, you gave people guidance on how to help.
One of the things I tell people in the how to help is don't make medical recommendations or send links or [00:15:00] say, well, oh my God, my friend Amy. She had six months and 30 and six months and Right, because Joel had 12 weeks and we're both cancer free, so
Ami Tully Lotka: Right.
Joelle Kaufman: know, which is great. Yay us. Um, so let's, um, let's talk a little bit about this joy strategy from your daughter.
You have this beautiful story your daughter insisted on taking you to treatment. If I recall, um, and you know, there was one joke, uh, she brought you like the same joke every week or a different joke. I dunno. Tell us more about this joke routine.
Ami Tully Lotka: Uh, she brought a joke to every, um. Every treatment, it was always a different joke. Her first joke was, um, my most memorable joke, it was, what did, uh, one saggy boob say to the other? And the answer is, uh, we've gotta pick things up around here, or [00:16:00] people are gonna think we're nuts. And so she'd come with a joke. It would make me laugh. And uh, we of course would, you know, she would share it with all the nurses. And I felt like, um, like part of this was like we'd get ready for a day of treatment, you know? Six hour, six to seven hours at, uh, the hospital, in the infusion center. And, um, Brenna would pack snacks, she'd pack her jokes. Uh, she would, I would get dressed like I dressed up. I felt like I was doing important work. So I would wear a nice outfit and, um, something of course that I
Joelle Kaufman: Mm-hmm.
Ami Tully Lotka: get, uh. Uh, get the infusion. So something that was a button down, but I felt like gonna tackle this and really like tackle this in a way that means I'm doing important work here.
I wanna dress win. So.
Joelle Kaufman: Now, do [00:17:00] you, were you already seeing your daughter once a week or did the infusions actually increase the amount of time you got to spend with your daughter?
Ami Tully Lotka: um, she moved in with us, um, for the, the, the
Joelle Kaufman: I.
Ami Tully Lotka: six months that I was in treatment. So she was really, um, the. The, a very, very joyous, important part of carrying on and taking care of both me and John. I mean, this was, you know, I said, you know, Brenna is like my head cheerleader and John is, uh, the operations manager of this. And, uh, he handled everything. This is, everybody needs a John all technical aspects of treatment. Uh, I never took a phone call from the insurance company or anything. John handled absolutely everything. And, um, but Brenna was the, the person who was, uh. [00:18:00] Sh. Joy every day. Sunshine, sunlight, happy joy.
She had actually, I was gonna show you, she had a book. She asked everyone to write me a letter and, um, she put it into a book, and it's a book with letters from all of my friends and family. And, um, she would bring the
Joelle Kaufman: Oh.
Ami Tully Lotka: along with her jokes over the course of treatment. Because it was overwhelmingly loving.
Right? And it's like so much all at once. I couldn't really even sit and read the book One story, couple stories a week of, you know, people with their wishes or memories or things that they were like, you know, joy things. that's what Brenna directed them to do. That we, that book was like a, there was a true inspiration of happiness and love for me. Yeah,
Joelle Kaufman: That is so beautiful. Did she ask them to start sending the letters? So she was the [00:19:00] catalyst.
Ami Tully Lotka: in a bound, uh, book with photographs and everything. It was just, it's a, it's a, it. I think she called the, the title of the book is Love Letters to Amy. It was so sweet.
Joelle Kaufman: Oh, but how great that, I mean,
Ami Tully Lotka: It was
Joelle Kaufman: it took cancer, right? It took cancer to give you this, this, this tremendous gift. And you know, people are always asking, what can I do? So treat me like I'm myself, like, don't make decisions for me. And if you're. Write me a letter. Yeah, it's really easy. You don't have to like, people are like, but I wanna be able to cure your cancer.
Well, unless you're my oncologist, that's not your job.
Ami Tully Lotka: right, right.
Joelle Kaufman: Do.
Ami Tully Lotka: so true?
Joelle Kaufman: Right. Okay. So you, your journey with cancer, your treatment journey was a, a bit longer than mine. And again, you know, my mother, my sister, I've had, I've seen the longer journeys, [00:20:00] the shorter you had to sit there with your oncologist saying you'd achieved an 85% response, but you'd still need surgery. How, how did you mentally get your head around
Ami Tully Lotka: I mean, I
Joelle Kaufman: 85%.
Ami Tully Lotka: complete response, uh, then I thought, well, I'll just be done. Uh, I'll be completely done. And she said that, that the truth is that that's still up to I. oncologist, even with a hundred percent response to chemotherapy, chances are pretty high that you would still have radiation and like, well, I was also surprised.
I said if it's got 85% response means like, you know, I wouldn't need radiation. So, but I learned actually that, um, you know, the. You don't want that Get in away. You wanna not only kill it, you wanna kill it and kill it and kill it. You wanna make [00:21:00] sure that that thing is gone and 85% is like a pretty good response.
So the surgery actually cleared the rest of the margins, and the surgeon knew the rest of the cancer was gone, which again, say, good, then I don't need radiation. No. Yes, you do.
Joelle Kaufman: Mm-hmm.
Ami Tully Lotka: Or so is recommended. Like I, at any point in time I could have said, no, I will
Joelle Kaufman: Mm-hmm.
Ami Tully Lotka: or I do not want, uh, so everything
Joelle Kaufman: Sure.
Ami Tully Lotka: is really is up to you.
And I think that, like you and I were talking, there are different pathways. take you down, uh, choices that you're comfortable with in your for, for yourself. It's not one way. And the doctors that I had would have respected, they would've encouraged me to take their advice, but they would've respected what I wanted no matter what. And I learned that too. That's kind of the part of
Joelle Kaufman: Mm-hmm. [00:22:00] Exactly.
Ami Tully Lotka: um, science isn't exact, you know, medicine isn't exact. It's, uh, based on, uh, it's based on what they've learned, but they've never had you. And they're clear about that. So the you part of it is a pretty big, uh, that not, you haven't been part of their science project before. Uh, but they know what works,
Joelle Kaufman: Right.
Ami Tully Lotka: Right.
Joelle Kaufman: They do. And they'll keep experimenting. I mean, when I asked, when I asked my team, I said, it was my first appointment with the oncologist. And I said, well, what's the stage? And they looked at me and Dr. Laura Esserman said, frankly, it doesn't matter. Like, I'm like, what? He goes, all that matters is if it responds to treatment.
And that was, you know, I, I grew up with, oh my God, stage zero. Great. [00:23:00] Probably, yes, stage zero is kind of great. Uh, stage four, really bad and stage one, two, and three, somewhere on that continuum. But I like, I like Dr. Essuman's point, like what matters is, does it respond to treatment if stage three and it responds to treatment and it's gone,
Ami Tully Lotka: And, you know,
Joelle Kaufman: winner, winner, chicken dinner.
Ami Tully Lotka: know, she, my, my Dr. Anderson who's a phenomenal researcher, she's actually, um, uh, is her profession is, uh, oncology research. Um, you know, she told me she never declared that I was cancer free. What she said is, what we know now is that. We can beat breast cancer.
So that's what one of the things that we know and if the cancer has over time has sends these microscopic cells, they tend to move south cancer or liver cancer or another form of cancer. She said, what we know [00:24:00] is that there are treatments. what we know. I felt like this straight talk from her, which was never sugarcoated, but was really clear, was very helpful. It wasn't like saying we waved a magic wand and that everything is good. Like instead it was. we know for sure is
Joelle Kaufman: Right.
Ami Tully Lotka: responded to the breast cancer treatment that you have, and this is good. Uh, if there's another incidence of breast cancer, guess what? We know, we know we can treat it. That's it.
Joelle Kaufman: So you made a couple of decisions in your treatment that are, as I said, different from mine and I really wanted to explore them. So one was you chose a lumpectomy instead of a mastectomy. I. Can you share? And, and for everyone listening, the research shows similar outcomes, right? So this is not, you know, Amy was playing roulette with her life and Joelle wasn't [00:25:00] like, they're just different risk tolerances, but because I have a genetic marker they wanted, there's a high probability of recurrent breast cancer in the other breast.
If you have the genetic mutation that I have, if you don't. You have other choices. So Amy, I hope you might share how you made the decision between a lumpectomy, a mastectomy, et cetera.
Ami Tully Lotka: made by my surgeon said that. Both choices were available to me and she would slightly lean towards a lumpectomy because the recovery would be shorter. Her,
Joelle Kaufman: Mm-hmm.
Ami Tully Lotka: had decided, or what she was actually telling me is results in, in terms of success rate so close that she couldn't say one was better than the other. What she knew for sure is that. a more of a complete, um, [00:26:00] uh, lo uh, if, if would feel stronger, uh, knowing that I had a mastectomy and that the chance of recurrence was lower, she would along with that. But she was really recommending or said she was on the side of lumpectomy and it really was because she felt re because my, my recovery would be shorter. That's, that's it is obviously
Joelle Kaufman: Mm-hmm. And it is, I mean, it's, it. It's not, and, and you retain sensation in your breasts. Uh, the difference is you probably have scans every three or six months, whereas I am scan free.
Ami Tully Lotka: is you have, I'll have ongoing scans and now I'll have a scan in a year. Um, and the, I. The follow up, like once the cancer is gone and the lumpectomy was complete, so all the margins were clear on the lumpectomy. At this point, Joelle, I[00:27:00]
Joelle Kaufman: Mm-hmm.
Ami Tully Lotka: see where the scar is. Like I, the, it's
Joelle Kaufman: Yeah.
Ami Tully Lotka: Absolutely
Joelle Kaufman: body amazing? Yeah.
Ami Tully Lotka: um, actually, you know, uh, so I'm grateful for that as what was a. no one made me feel like I was taking the easy way out or, you know, making a choice that had a higher
Joelle Kaufman: Right,
Ami Tully Lotka: Um, I, 'cause I was not, and the
Joelle Kaufman: because you weren't.
Ami Tully Lotka: that I was, uh, and I think that I.
Uh, part of that was driven by the fact that there were no genetic markers. I had no, uh, Brenna
Joelle Kaufman: Mm-hmm.
Ami Tully Lotka: markers at all for breast cancer. She's actually not at a higher risk just because of the cancer that I had. Now, I. I think 10 years ago we might not have had that kind of information, but we've got that kind of information now, but that doesn't mean for anybody who's [00:28:00] listening that the most important thing.
And then probably the biggest decision I made was to keep that appointment and get my sisters checked because that.
Joelle Kaufman: Right.
Ami Tully Lotka: That was the biggest decision because
Joelle Kaufman: That's right.
Ami Tully Lotka: two months, I had this fast growing cancer that would've been like really been problematic, a much bigger problem than it was caught just in a, you know, mammogram.
That was an
Joelle Kaufman: Yeah.
Ami Tully Lotka: checkup. I was 11 months since my previous mammogram. In an 11 months, I end up with stage three cancer means get 'em checked girls, get 'em checked. just not worth it. Check it.
Joelle Kaufman: Absolutely. Check yourself every month, check yourself and go to the, yeah, I mean they, because I was scanned so frequently, they had my mam, my MRI from June and my MRI from January. And in that six month period, a nine millimeter tumor erupted. That's what the doctor said. They're sitting there going, wow, that's so cool.
I'm like, [00:29:00] word choice. Word choice. Like I'm okay, but like think. Anyway, it was great. Now, another choice you made that was different is you did not do cold capping. You embraced. The whole thing, uh, whereas I clearly, 'cause you can see by the length of my hair cold capped. So tell me a little bit about your thought process there and, and did you have like a fabulous scarf hat and wig collection
Ami Tully Lotka: of the ways that I tried to keep the hair that I did have for as long as I had it. My oncologist said, well, you're gonna lose your hair if you care about things like that. I mean, that's what I mean. This woman was so matter of fact, you know? Right. So direct. I was like, care
Joelle Kaufman: direct
Ami Tully Lotka: don't know
Joelle Kaufman: Right.
Ami Tully Lotka: that care about their hair. So she said, so you're gonna lose it. And um, I. She said, and you're not gonna care about that. Like, I think that she was really right. Like the truth is that it sounds very, um, uh, [00:30:00] dramatic and when you hear that, the fact of the matter is that it actually doesn't matter and hair grows back. So she said cold capping was a, an option. And when I went in to be fitted for the cold cap, the therapist there told me that would add. minutes longer for each chemotherapy session that I had, which was already six hours, and that you really are freezing cold. Like it's, you know, you're, you're froze. You're, you're putting a, like a frozen thing on top of your head. You did it. I didn't, but she also said that I would keep, um, to 60% of my hair. As a result of the cold cab treatment, I would add 90 minutes onto every six hour session in, um, in for infusion therapy, and I asked her, could [00:31:00] you tell me which 40 to 60%. Stays on me. What actually part of this do I keep? Um, and I thought, you know, I am, going to embrace this and say, uh, like I've, I'm going to have a whole new, um, outlook as far as what my hair might look like, and it might just be an adventure and the. I tried my, my niece who's, um, uh, a, she's just a phenomenal, um, artist and an actress and she was on Broadway and she has wears wigs all the time based on the work that she does. She had a wig made for me and it was black curly hair, like it looked exactly like my hair, and it was pretty uncanny how much it looked exactly like my hair, but you have to keep a wig on. head, which means like things that will hold it down [00:32:00] and um, it slips. I would find myself, I'd have it on in a Zoom meeting with clients and by the end of the call it would be like up, go for like pushed all the way back up my head.
I think is silly. Silly. And then once I. that I was gonna get the wig on while I was waiting for the Zoom call to start. like, you know, I'm not on camera and so I'm bald sitting in front of the Zoom camera. um, when it flips on, I was actually on camera bald I hit the deck.
Joelle Kaufman: Oh gosh,
Ami Tully Lotka: It disappeared from the chair. to get the wig on my head, under the chair where people are going, where did you go? Where'd you go? And I come up with this and I said, What am I [00:33:00] doing? What? What am I doing from that moment on? I put a hat on and live with my life, you know, just like I am gonna have a hat and it's
Joelle Kaufman: All right.
Ami Tully Lotka: so that's all you get.
Joelle Kaufman: That's awesome. I, I did cold cap. Um, the type I used brings your head to 37 degrees, so not quite freezing. Um, and, uh, but they wet your head, so you had wet hair. Under 37 degrees. Um, the rest of you is warm, like ply me with warm blankets. I, I wasn't uncomfortable other than they tell you to take an ibuprofen to stave off the headache and I always forgot so.
I literally every time, like I forgot the ibuprofen, can you ask a nurse practitioner to write an order and so I can take an ibuprofen and prevent the headache. Um, but I couldn't wash my hair, so I had hair, but I can only wash it once a week. And I have [00:34:00] volumous, massive amounts of hair, right? If you're listening to this like it think like.
Jacqueline Smith, big lots of hair. And so if you can't use any styling products, use any styling devices, I was told I could use a wide tooth comb and I literally went to my hairdresser before I started chemo. I said, so this is happening. I need you to figure out what to do with this. That can be styled with a
Ami Tully Lotka: It's gonna be
Joelle Kaufman: tooth comb.
And that's it.
Right. Whatever it is, like, you know, we know it has places where it curls or where it wants to go, different directions. Can't use any product. Can't use any devices. How good are you? And he is very good. He is very. And oh, by the way, I can't come back and see you till I'm fully done, right? Because you can't touch my head again.
So this has to last.
Ami Tully Lotka: right?[00:35:00]
Joelle Kaufman: It does. So I bought hats. I, I mean, I still, I have a collection of hats. I had wigs, the, you know, my sister, my sister-in-law had their wigs. Luckily I didn't need them. Um, but it does extend, you were right like mine, it added two hours. But my sessions were not five or six hours. They were probably from labs to full infusion, three to four hours plus two.
So it was still a six hour ordeal. Yeah. All right, so you've got that quote. Pain is inevitable, misery is optional. You had to have some dark days. There's some day, I mean, it's inevitable. Everybody has moments where you're either, why'd this happen to me or this sucks, or, I don't feel good. How did this mantra, pain is inevitable, misery is optional.
How did it get you through one of those days and, and. Has that impacted how you serve your clients?
Ami Tully Lotka: think [00:36:00] that, you know, all of this, the greater empathy that comes from having encountered this, uh, experience. I, in terms of serving others, period, this is, people deal with pain and if you are going through cancer and you have no hair, people know that something's wrong. But there is an, 99% of the pain that's out there with people among us. Doesn't come with any indication. You can't see it. And, but it exists. And I think that kind of empathy grew in me as a result of this experience. there were dark days. I mean, the dark days of like just dealing with pain or, um, just feeling really, really sick. Um, I have, my friend James and I have meditated together now for. Well, it's actually been about 15 years, and so James really helped me and meditation really helped me through this whole process. [00:37:00] And James helped me move pain around, let go in and shift and let go of pain. And he gave me something to say. Um, and it the, with morning meditation, I'd wake up in the morning every morning say, I. I do not know what today will bring, but I will handle it because I am a handler things and every day.
Joelle Kaufman: That is awesome.
Ami Tully Lotka: what got me through the
Joelle Kaufman: The um,
Ami Tully Lotka: today
Joelle Kaufman: so I do not know what today will bring, but I will handle it because I am a handler of things, so my reputation. As, uh, when I was an operating executive, and I think even now, and by the way, if there are kids listening, please mute. Uh, is that I am the unfuck aup, [00:38:00] so I do not know what will happen, but I will unfuck it.
So, and you know, cancer, oh, that, that gives you a good number of things to handle or, you know, so, you know, you told me something remarkable when we had our first conversation.
Ami Tully Lotka: Right.
Joelle Kaufman: you wouldn't change having had cancer, that how would someone who's newly diagnosed, like how would they get their head around that?
Ami Tully Lotka: um, it's not something you'd wish upon yourself or anyone else. And as far as not changing it, I wouldn't change anything that's happened because I think the greatest opportunity that we have for growth comes through things that are difficult. And we really try to set things up both for ourselves and for our children so that there's never any difficulty and we just do that.[00:39:00]
Like we wouldn't wish it, it's not, these aren't, we don't wish difficult things, but you know, the idea and of, uh, Andy Grammar has a song that says, I wish You Pain. And he, the reason he says this, it's like, seems odd, but what he is saying is, um. In the pain your heart expands. Like there's a, there's growth there and, uh, it's not wishing bad things upon you.
It's actually probably closer to the way I feel about this experience is, uh, that it's part of my journey, it's part of my life. It opens my eyes in a different way. It gives me an opportunity to serve the people around me and my clients in a really a, in a different way. Um. And that. don't expect Also, I mean, it, the end of cancer isn't the end of growth. The journey actually is one that continues. I expect to continue to grow. Meeting you is a growth opportunity for me. [00:40:00] Uh, I haven't thought about reaching out to, um, people who have cancer, I would, I will. I mean, I, I would be, if I feel that, that I would like to be helpful, I want like, and I think now I can. Uh, can be, and you can be helpful when people want help. You know, if people are listening to this podcast,
Joelle Kaufman: Mm-hmm.
Ami Tully Lotka: help, they're looking for, perspective and ideas from other, you know, people who've had similar experiences. And that's, you know, I find that what, how, what a beautiful thing to be able to participate.
Yeah. What a beautiful thing.
Joelle Kaufman: That's why we're doing it. That's why we're doing it. Yeah. Um, I think that, you know, it's so common and what I, I was also in the tell everyone camp. There are people who don't, but I was in the tell everyone camp and you tell people
Ami Tully Lotka: [00:41:00] right.
Joelle Kaufman: they share back, right? And you're actually connecting at a much deeper level because we've been through stuff and I can't make your stuff go away and you can't make my stuff go away, but I can stand next to you as you face your stuff.
And it really helps to have somebody, it's like, you know, hands on your back. Uh, and what I hope from this podcast is people have a lot less fear and a lot more hope, um, a lot less confusion, and they feel a lot more confident. Right. So, lightning round. I'm gonna do five questions, five, whatever comes off the top of your mind.
Okay. Number one, best piece of advice from your medical team that had nothing to do with medicine.
Ami Tully Lotka: actually, uh, have fun was the best advice I [00:42:00] got. Have fun. Live your life. Do the things like that was the best advice right?
Joelle Kaufman: That's awesome. Absolutely. Is there one thing you wish someone had told you before your very first chemo session?
Ami Tully Lotka: let's see. Before my very first chemo session, I wish that someone had told me that, um, the room is filled with people who are on their own journey and there are. It's a, you're almost in a holy place of people who are really
Joelle Kaufman: Mm.
Ami Tully Lotka: working to fight, um, something that's difficult in their lives. And I felt that energy, and I don't know that there was really a way of preparing for that level of energy, but you know, because you do [00:43:00] feel, you, you're surrounded by. Other people. My hope was that, um, as I, I kind of got accustomed to that, it was, um, people of all ages, you know, um, mostly women, uh, but it was men and women, but people of all ages. And I think that knowing in advance that what you are gonna see and what you're going to experience, like who was there? Who else was there? Uh, there's a lot of like things that look scary about that. Joelle, you go in and you see someone who is, um, you know, really hurting or in a wheelchair and like, well, like, and I. make this jump? Is that, am I heading down that path? You know, like, is that where I'm going? And um, and I think that knowing that in advance, like who you're seeing all the whole, like the whole picture what people [00:44:00] are dealing with and actually the, the notion that any smile, anything positive, right?
Anything good. A smile, you know? Um. Touching someone on their shoulder, you know, having a blessing for someone. Um, it's more appreciated in the, I don't even know that it can be appreciated in the moment for someone who is suffering. But, you know, that's just like, that would've been good to be prepared for.
Joelle Kaufman: So it's interesting, um, again, I, I didn't know infusion centers were so public until my sister's chemo and her center. I think there must have been 20 people in chairs around the edge. I mean, mine, we were at least in pods of two or four or whatever. But, um. I, in my pod of four every week I started noticing the same woman was Kitty Corner to me doing the penguin cold [00:45:00] capping.
And she always had the same guy but they weren't talking. And I, you know, I have to unhook and run for the bathroom 'cause I had seven minutes to be unhooked before I'd start to defrost. But I, um. I stopped over and I said, Hey. She looked young and I just introduced myself and I said, you know, stage two triple negative breast cancer.
And she's like, B two triple negative breast cancer. And in that con, that short exchange, I said, if you ever wanna talk, here's my number. I've, I've seen this movie with family members or whatever, if you ever wanna talk. And we started texting and.
Ami Tully Lotka: Uh
Joelle Kaufman: text, she's become a really good friend, but we text constantly.
We were on the same exact start date with the same tumor. Thank God we both had the same outcome, different surgeries, but you know, reaching out and just saying, Hey, I'm here, I'm smiling. Um,
Ami Tully Lotka: [00:46:00] Absolutely.
Joelle Kaufman: you know, I see you. I don't see a sick person. I see you. I think that is really helpful. But it would be good if in the chemo talk they say, by the way, here's what you're gonna see when you walk in.
Ami Tully Lotka: here's this is what it's gonna look like.
Joelle Kaufman: Right,
Ami Tully Lotka: the setup looks like. I didn't
Joelle Kaufman: right,
Ami Tully Lotka: was. And it doesn't take long to
Joelle Kaufman: right.
Ami Tully Lotka: to see where you are. But that, that's so, and I think that a story like that of connecting with somebody and then texting with them, need that touchpoint.
It's really nice to have somebody who is like on that same pathway. Uh, you know, touching base with friends of mine who were cancer survivors. Every survivor was a hero for me. I've got this picture behind me that's got picture of all of my friends and family who are either angels or survivors, but they were with me, uh, every time.
Right? Yeah.
Joelle Kaufman: Perfect. Perfect. All right. Complete this sentence. The, the day I knew I was going to kick this thing's ass [00:47:00] was when.
Ami Tully Lotka: kick it. Was when, um, was the day that, that I had surgery and Baar, Dr. Julie Baar came in and said, got it. We got all of it.
Joelle Kaufman: Awesome.
Ami Tully Lotka: did.
Joelle Kaufman: That's where you feel like you can levitate out of the bed, right? Like, watch this magic trick. That's awesome. All right, so you talked about the the taco party you're gonna have, but what's the first thing you did to celebrate being done? You finished your, your last stuff with chemo a couple months ago.
Did you celebrate and what'd you do?
Ami Tully Lotka: pathway to, you know, the, you know, it was, um, idea that we could, uh, be done and go to Jackson Hole, um, with. Friends and have a big celebration, champagne and uh, [00:48:00] actually a bottle of champagne that someone gave me as a gift a long time ago. a bottle of do, like, there's never an occasion that's better to drink that than on a day that you realize put something really big behind you.
So a bottle of do in Jackson Hole, what could be better than that? Yes,
Joelle Kaufman: Literally you climbed the top of the mountain.
Ami Tully Lotka: It is.
Joelle Kaufman: That's awesome. Jackson is so stunning. Um, all right, last one. For someone listening who just got diagnosed,
Ami Tully Lotka: You
Joelle Kaufman: what's the one thing you want them to know right now?
Ami Tully Lotka: it. don't know that you can do it, and then you do
Joelle Kaufman: That's right.
Ami Tully Lotka: there's a, uh, the stretch beyond what you, you know, like you're thinking I don't wanna do it, or I never thought I would wanna do it. Like, I don't like, feel like doing it. Um. You can zap it, can win this, you can beat this, you can do it.
And um, [00:49:00] I think there's a. A big faith component to this that says, like, I feel like that, like this is, uh, prayer, meditation, feeling closer to the people that you already feel close to, uh, in incre in increasing a spiritual journey that really means that you feel closer to own, um, uh, to God, to your own spirit, to the. The, the spirit world of your own? To me, I think that is, um, I would really give anybody who's given a diagnosis, um, up. It's, uh, not that it's gonna be easy, but you can do it.
Joelle Kaufman: That's right and I add to it.
Ami Tully Lotka: Ask,
Joelle Kaufman: And when you need support, I am a phone call, text away, and I, I am here.
Ami Tully Lotka: when I tell people, you [00:50:00] can pray for me, you can give me permission, you can say a prayer for me. And I think I told you this, I have always, um, that this meditation and prayer, and to me, meditation is listening to God and prayer is talking to God. And, um, when you feel the power of pe, other people praying for you, like I felt it. I felt, felt it, felt the power and the energy of goodwill that was being pushed my way. I felt it. So when people say, what can I do for you? And that you say, well, say a prayer for me. and or I, and when someone tells you, I will say a prayer for you. I say, that is the best thing that you can do. I mean, that is, that isn't science,
Joelle Kaufman: on it, there's scientific proof, Amy, there's scientific proof, and I felt very held and lifted and, uh, it, it was amazing. In [00:51:00] fact, I call where you are right now, there's the void. 'cause after you go back to your life as you knew it. You don't have all those appointments. You don't have all those things,
Ami Tully Lotka: Now
Joelle Kaufman: everyone's not praying for you anymore.
Ami Tully Lotka: like you've gotta fill the void with where
Joelle Kaufman: Exactly. Exactly.
Ami Tully Lotka: you really realize now the power of it. Like I've always felt there was power in prayer, but I'm more convinced of it more now than ever. in this void, which I also really appreciate the void, no appointments is left.
Great. And um, but the other part of it is at the end of it, how do I thank all the people who've helped me along the way? Well, how do I actually express the depth of gratitude that I have? I feel like I've got a, a message of thankfulness all of these people who wrote me notes and said prayers and were kind and offered. I. Really feel like that was, um, uh, the [00:52:00] kindness of others is there and you have to let it in in order to receive it. Uh, if people don't know that you're having
Joelle Kaufman: Mm-hmm.
Ami Tully Lotka: time, you're really, you're limiting yourself one of the best ways to. Thrive in this and having people know, and I think that your privacy
Joelle Kaufman: Mm-hmm.
Ami Tully Lotka: of privacy is, it's up to you.
But I would encourage people to say, allow others to know. allow them to pray or allow them to care. Write me a note. Tell me a story, you know? Uh, and I would like to hear about people that survived. I'd say, tell me about someone that you know who survived cancer. Like, tell me that story. That is what you, that's how you
Joelle Kaufman: Right.
Ami Tully Lotka: that's how you can help. But you have to tell people what you're going through in order for that to open up that avenue of, um. [00:53:00] Of care for yourself, right?
Joelle Kaufman: Communication, it's opening a communication channel saying, you know, I'm, I'm open to it. So for everyone who. Was so fabulous in supporting you and gave you so much love and prayer and strength. Hopefully you can send them part of this podcast as a, I really am saying thank you. I'm saying thank you every single day.
Ami Tully Lotka: yes.
Joelle Kaufman: Uh, I feel the same way. Uh, the, the gratitude I feel, not just for my fantastic medical team, but for everybody who expressed how they felt about me and cared, and how they helped my family. I, I mean, it's just amazing. So who knew cancer increases your level of gratitude?
Ami Tully Lotka: does.
Joelle Kaufman: Well, Amy, it has been, again, a delight and thank you for coming on the podcast for sharing your story. I'm so glad you kicked Cancer's ass [00:54:00] and yes, and I wish you a lifetime of growth and good health, and I hope that everyone who listens to this episode takes away a few pieces, morsels of wisdom, uh, from Amy's journey that can make your journey.
It's
Ami Tully Lotka: Thank you
Joelle Kaufman: that much better.